The Fearless Road

01. The Accidental Entrepreneur

• Michael D Devous Jr • Season 1 • Episode 1

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In our premiere episode for the Fearless Road Podcast, we interview Jen Salerno, 22 yr veteran of the hospitality and events industry. In this episode she shares her insights and courage allowing us inside the thoughts and experiences that have shaped her career as an industry expert, a thought leader and an entrepreneur.

Michael Devous:

Okay, hey, just out walking on the property trying to get some fresh air and some ideas in my head, but I wanted to say this is the premiere episode of the Fearless Road podcast, very excited about having Jen Solerno from JTS Connect on the show as my first guest. A 20-year veteran of the events and hospitality industry, specializing in bringing together audiences and team members and connecting them through ideas that shape our industry. Why I love this particular episode is Jen shares with us how she redefines courage, especially in this post, during COVID and post COVID time. She shares with us what it's like to lean into, what feels hard, recognizing the power of vulnerability and the moment she discovered she was an accidental entrepreneur. So I think it's going to be a great episode. I think you're going to learn a lot. Hopefully you get a bit of an understanding of what the show's like and, yeah, you're coming on the journey.

Michael Devous:

So welcome to the Fearless Road premiere episode, jen Solerno. Hey, we'll see you there. Stay fearless. Bye, hi everybody and welcome to the Fearless Road podcast. I am here in studio with the amazing Jen Solerno. She is the event professional who speaks to and represents events, specifically talking about moderators, talking about presentation, talking about performance and coaching event professionals around the globe and with the organization PCMA. Is that correct?

Jen Salerno:

Actually, I do work with PCMA. I partner with them. I, though, I have my own company, which is JTS Connect. That's right, that's right and how are?

Michael Devous:

we connecting. We're connecting people Right now. Riverside Studios in New Mexico and you're in Chicago right.

Jen Salerno:

I am in Chicago. So I love being here in Chicago, just because, well, obviously it's a wonderful city I'm sure you've been, yes, I have Good good but also it's just such a hub for event professionals in general. Right, PCMA, like you mentioned, is headquartered here. I part of the Greater Midwest chapter which has such a robust membership base here in Chicago and the surrounding areas. So, yep, I love being here.

Michael Devous:

Awesome. Well, I love Chicago, especially the riverboat tour. I know that that's probably a massive cliche, but getting to see the city from the backside and the river, where things originally the river was behind everything was the back of buildings was where I suppose they were dumping back in the day Terrible American experiences. But what's really cool about it is you get to see sort of an underbelly of the city in a very unique perspective. It's just a very cool river and it's super neat that it comes through the middle of these buildings and underneath stuff and that's I think that's cool. I love Chicago.

Jen Salerno:

It's so funny that she just brought that up. I was just talking with my husband about my desire to do one of those tours. I'm like let's do it this weekend. It's been forever. I used to be a concierge that's how I started in the event industry, actually and so I don't think I've done a tour since then, when I was learning about the city. So that was a good 25 years ago.

Michael Devous:

Nice Well, welcome to the Fearless Road podcast. Jen and I connected via LinkedIn, but mainly through events and most recently I believe it was the leadership event for the Leadership Conference for PCMA. I got to host a game show which was very corny and very funny but it was very entertaining to get people to connect and to engage and stuff for the event, which was a lot of fun and I really enjoyed being able to do that. I've had a lot of respect for Jen for, I think, about two years Now, I want to say, monitoring and watching her career and what she does in the event industry. I, of course, come from the events industry. I spent about 15 to 20 years of my life either producing, managing, coordinating, creating events for people. I understand intimately what it takes to put on a successful event. You have to be a kind of particular individual to do this business, to be in this industry, so give our audience.

Michael Devous:

Yeah, exactly, I mean, there's a little type A, there's a little bit of, you know, overachieving. I think you know meticulous. So tell the audience, just for those of us who may or may not be familiar with your career and who you are. Give us a little bit of background, both professionally and personally, so we can get to know you.

Jen Salerno:

Oh well, thank you. It's always a fun question. They have tried to figure out how, where to go with the origin story, right? But so so I mentioned that I that I did start my career in the events and hospitality industry really, and I started with hospitality, like I said, as a concierge. So right out of college I started working at the Palmer House Hilton as a concierge, which I had no clue what I was doing, right, I was. How many of us had a clue?

Michael Devous:

when we first started out, Like none of us.

Jen Salerno:

Well, I guess right, who knows anything about their first day?

Michael Devous:

I love that about do you know what I mean when we're younger and we're sort of blissfully ignorant about life and we just go yeah, I'm going to go do that and you just go and do it. So you know.

Jen Salerno:

Well, I mean, you know, I think you just hit on something that we'll have to talk about later as we continue on in this episode right, nope, I'll take my note.

Jen Salerno:

Pin that for later. The whole just just do it right. But yeah, but yeah. So it was. It was such a cool experience to to work in especially that property, the Palmer House. It's just such a old, historic, iconic property.

Jen Salerno:

So what better place to get started in my hospitality and events career? So after about a year and a half of being at Concierge I realized that wow, there's a career to be had here and I I seized that opportunity. So I worked my way up through the convention services department and eventually moved on to what was at the time called the Chicago Convention and Tourism Bureau. Now it's to Chicago, so, but the Chicago CBB works there for a few years and learned a whole different perspective of the hospitality and events industry. You know McCormick Place and all of the special event venues. It was such a cool experience to do that. And then I went back to hotels for a while because I realized that I missed the camaraderie of hotels and I needed to learn sales. That's something that I had not done yet. And I'll talk about fear. I still have a fear of sales. It's a hard, hard gig.

Michael Devous:

Sales is not. I do not envy salespeople at all. I think I was very blessed in my life to fall into certain types of career paths Didn't require there were sales components to to it, of course, but yeah, always. I think that's true in a lot of ways for a lot of different career and industries. But when I fell into it, it just was natural for me to pitch what I was doing, how I was doing it, to the people who wanted to hear about it and then buy in. So I lucked out, I think, in that way, because it was just easy for me to do, you know, because I loved what I was doing, and I think that that really resonates with people. If you're coming from a place of authenticity authenticity about your joy of what you're working on and what you're doing for them then a sale becomes not a sale but more of a relationship opportunity. I suppose.

Jen Salerno:

Oh, totally agree, and I think that's really the key for those of us who maybe don't have that typical sales persona, salesperson persona, which I just don't and didn't. I'll never forget my director at the time having the whole sales team take one of those personality tests yes, you know, and just to see like you know, like what's the. I just did one last, this past week.

Michael Devous:

Oh really, oh funny. I'm starting to see if my personality's changed. I'm just like haven't I grown? Haven't I adapted, haven't I become somebody new? And my personality was like nope, you are still type this, you're still you know, isn't that?

Jen Salerno:

interesting.

Michael Devous:

Well.

Jen Salerno:

I mean, we can definitely grow, I think, in ways that maybe don't change our core belief system or the things that like drive us to motivate us Don't really make us who we are? Yeah, right. So the challenge for me was you know, all the sales people on the team have, like this thing, this graph that looks like this and mine looks like this, and he's just like why are you doing this? And like, yeah, I don't know, maybe this is not the right career path.

Michael Devous:

This might be an indicator that you're on the road Right.

Jen Salerno:

Like the relationship piece, like you said, like okay, like that's the way to sell. I suppose if you are a person like me or maybe like you, who just doesn't have that like super competitive edge, like always, like close business, close business, like I, just that's just not me. But if I love my product and I love and I believe in what I'm doing, I'll talk to you all day long and just convince you that's true.

Michael Devous:

You can't shut me up. Work with me. If you get me started on something I'm passionate about, there's no stopping it.

Jen Salerno:

Don't you love when you, when you're talking about something and you feel that, that the passion come out and just the words spill out of you.

Michael Devous:

You're in the flow, as they say.

Jen Salerno:

I love the flow. I love the flow.

Michael Devous:

Well before we flow into more concepts and ideas and questions about fear. So give us a little background on your personal life. You've shared some of your professional experiences, so take us through, gentlemen, the human. Is there a story there or some interesting or OG, og stories that got you a into the where you are today? Specifically be some of the biggest challenges you face as a human being on this planet? And I know that's probably you can't do it in five minutes or less. So you know what. I just gave you a big, massive question.

Jen Salerno:

So I can do this, michael, I know I can't and I have to give you credit, I've actually never been asked that question before. You know, there's always the career question how did you get to where you are today and your career trajectory? But you know, as far as the how does the personal piece play into it? That's a that's a really good question. But so I mean, long story short. I I live here, like it's in the Chicagoland area. I've been married for almost 20 years and have two kids. Thank you, yeah.

Michael Devous:

Relationships, relationships. If you can maintain a solid relationship with your partner for that long, you've got some foundation. You've got some skills and foundation and character traits that probably lend it really well to your professional career, I think, in building relationships. I think that's important.

Jen Salerno:

Look at you connecting dots. I love that. Well you know, as, as a moderator, you know that that's I can recognize that that is a major skill. So I think you've got that. But you're right though you are, you're hitting it on the head, I guess.

Jen Salerno:

And that's just the whole piece of of building lasting relationships, which is so crucial and critical in our industry knowing how to partner when to when to admit that you're wrong, when to learn, when to you know all of those different skills and and the discomfort also that comes with that kind of thing, and the nice thing about having a partner for so long is that you can work on those things and, you know, just eventually learn how to lean into what feels hard and realize that you can overcome it.

Michael Devous:

Which that comes from. It just struck me when you said it because you can work on these things with the partner. That comes from commitment. This is something I feel like in terms of business, business partnerships, relationships that we build with other companies, clients and stuff. What kind of commitment do we make to them and do they make to us where we can actually realize a mutually beneficial relationship that can be worked on? Not everything is going to go great, Not everything is going to be perfect, but are we aware of the development of that commitment in a relationship that says you know what I'm going to be in this and stick with you because I believe in what you're doing and how you do it, but we're engaged enough that we can talk about the areas where we need improvement, make mistakes Things aren't working out quite as well and give you that chance to actually make those improvements for the client and make the changes necessary to keep the relationship positive, ongoing and productive?

Jen Salerno:

You're so right and, as you were saying, all that I was thinking about and think this is something that's true in it's definitely true in my relationship with my husband, but then also true in business partnerships as well and the fact that it is going to change and evolve over time and you always have the choice to grow together or to grow apart, and so I think the key is being able to kind of roll with the punches and realize that there are times that maybe one person needs to be supported more, like, for example, I'll just say that one professional aspect that I didn't hit on was that the seven years prior to the pandemic, I was with a company called On Peak, which is a housing bureau, and that is where I really had most of my career, growth and development.

Jen Salerno:

I became a director there, so it was a really great experience and I had a nice salary. I had a nice, healthy salary and my husband is self-employed and he has been self-employed for many years now, and so I was the one who had this like super solid salary, the insurance, all that stuff. Then the pandemic happens and that totally shifted. I lost that job All of a sudden, me who is the breadwinner, with a solid, secure position. I couldn't bring that to my family anymore. That was off the table. And then he still self-employed and has a successful job and company, but still it was just a shift right when he had to step into this role and I had to step more into this role of being more around the house and supporting here. And, frankly, I'm still learning how to deal with that shift in our relationship structure Because it's really different. It's really different.

Jen Salerno:

I guess my point is that that can happen in business partnerships too, and just companies that work together and weather the changes that we've seen over the last few years, and it's just going to be a matter of can business partners or vendors or suppliers grow together, or maybe it's sometimes it's time to just cut ties.

Michael Devous:

Part ways, yeah, speaking of which, you're talking here specifically about your journey as an entrepreneur a female entrepreneur in America, which is a little different than an entrepreneur in other countries, as I'm learning that the way that they do business and how they see business and relationships it's very different. Americans view it very aggressively, but also tactically, and, of course, there's so many different shows and so many different programs and so much content built around entrepreneurs. So do you have a personal philosophy about entrepreneurship, your journey as an entrepreneur?

Jen Salerno:

A personal philosophy, which is I still don't know if I still don't know if I'm cut out for it.

Michael Devous:

No, I am. Well, it could be. It could be in development right.

Jen Salerno:

It is in development. I mean, I never, ever, wanted to be an entrepreneur. It was just was not part of my desire. Like I mentioned being at Unpeak, the company that I was at prior to this whole new time of life, I probably would have retired there. To be honest, I was very, very happy there with what I was doing. I mean, did I have a little like nagging feeling that was like, yeah, you have a few little dreams there, you know, and maybe I guess I just didn't realize that that maybe was a little entrepreneurial bug.

Michael Devous:

So it's so. You're kind of like the accidental entrepreneur.

Michael Devous:

Oh my gosh, totally Like, yes, accidental and COVID pushed me into it as well when I realized that the skill sets I'd built over my entire life, the relationships I had built, the different career paths and jobs and things I had had done actually suited me very well to be an entrepreneur. And while I had the bug and I had the same thing, you're like, you know, it'd be kind of cool if I could just you know X, y and Z, and wouldn't it be nice to have my own business. And then the other thoughts flood in. Oh my God, I have to manage everything and I'm going to have, you know, like, how am I going to build revenue? And all the other questions that could come in. You know, when you're, when you're trying to step into the arena of entrepreneurship, and then suddenly you find yourself doing it like you're already there and and then you're looking around, going oh, that's how these things take place.

Jen Salerno:

Well, you know you're so right and the other thing that you realize and then once you really start consuming that multitude of entrepreneurial content that you mentioned is out there because you're right, there is no shortage you start really listening to how other entrepreneurs got started or other people I mean even people that are close industry colleagues and you were like, oh, like everyone's literally just trying to figure it out day by day.

Jen Salerno:

Like okay, sure there's some people who have figured it out. You know many, many, many steps ahead of where I am, or maybe where you are, but he just realized that no one is born knowing this knowledge. We are like no, just trying to figure it out.

Michael Devous:

We have. Our audience has built up of entrepreneurs, subject matter experts and business leaders and executive leaders and things like that, so they are thirsty, always thirsty, for additional knowledge and experiences in the entrepreneurial, on the entrepreneurial journey. Speaking of which, on our journey here at the Fearless Red, we talk about fear. So we're going to get into fear with Jen Slerno and we will be right back. Okay, and we are back with Jen Slerno on the Fearless Red podcast. Don't mind me while I hiccup and mess up my speaking. That's cool. We were just talking about the career path with entrepreneurs, the philosophy of entrepreneurship, and now we're going to dig a little deeper into fear. Obviously, that's what we talked about here on the Fearless Road the valleys, not peaks. We talk about the journey to get to success and what that looks like, and today we are going to be getting a little deep dive with Jen Slerno on her journey with fear. So talk to us a little bit. Do you have an OG, because you mentioned an origin story earlier Do you have an OG story about fear?

Jen Salerno:

Oh, I'm going to go back, yes, and I would say I was thinking about this. As far as my, my, my relationship and journey with fear and the different ways that I have probably not really acknowledged that it was something, that that's what it was.

Michael Devous:

But I mean, yes, I understand that statement right there, because sometimes you didn't realize that it was fear you were dealing with Some of the skill sets that we're raised with. Nurture versus nature, family and our surroundings provides us with a filter and a perspective that doesn't always see fear for what it is.

Jen Salerno:

Yes, I would agree, and you know not to not to avoid the question, I'll go back to what I was going to say. I just want to add that I was thinking about the fact that sometimes this fear that keeps showing up throughout life is like well, why, like what is the fear? And like I feel like I almost still can't even answer that question exactly, like what exactly is the purpose of this fear? Why is it coming?

Michael Devous:

But that's what this, that's what this show is about. It is to ask that question why? Why do you keep popping up, why are you always here, why do you keep running me down, why you challenge me every single time I turn a corner and try to do something, boom, there's that nagging fear, or that question of worthiness, or that you know you're attempting to be something that you're not. And and yeah, I'm asking that same question, which is what's the purpose of it If we don't, if we don't lean into it and ask what the purpose is? Are we running from it? Are we avoiding it? Are we not using it correctly? And I think we can find a way to make it a better tool in our lives. And so, yeah, what's the OG? Tell me the story.

Jen Salerno:

So I was thinking about when I was working at the Palmer House and at the time I was in the convention services department and this actually has nothing to do with with work, to be honest but I was thinking about something where I realized that, you know, sometimes you just like have a fear, or or maybe even the fear just like disappears and there's some other kind of overpowering, something that takes over.

Jen Salerno:

But I had just moved into a condo I'm actually had purchased a condo and I was in my mid 20s and it was a brand new gut rehab situation and so they were trying to turn over. You know, the former, like people who are developing it and made it into now they're like okay, now we need a new board and everything. Like something inside my body I think I was 25 at the time was just like you have to be president, you have to be president of the association, like, like it is going to fall to you. It's not something I wanted to do, something I was terrified to do, but it was something that was like you, this is on you, and I don't know what made me think that.

Michael Devous:

It just sounds like you were called to it, just internally called to the task for the challenge.

Jen Salerno:

Kind of yeah, and but like this is not to say that there wasn't like fear associated with that and like every time we step into some kind of leadership role and I had I had a boss of mine point out to me you know, he's the gen, you are a leader. And I'm like, what are you talking about? Like I don't see myself that way at all, right, not, I'm scared to do this, I'm scared to do that. And he's just like, yeah, except that you know, you, you have a desire to like move up and grow in this department. You did this, you're doing that.

Jen Salerno:

And then I thought to myself I was captain of truly Eagan High School, and then the whole thing with the president of the condo association or whatever. And it's just kind of funny to think about all those different times where something seems really scary to do but then yet it's just like a total, like desire to just do it anyway, to kind of push through that fear. So maybe the OG fear story is the fact that there are times when you're really really called to do something. You just stare that fear in the face and say, like move out of the way, because I, this is something that has to be done, and I- Jane, did you just describe courage?

Jen Salerno:

I guess I did. Is that the flip side of fear, would you say?

Michael Devous:

I know, actually I don't think that it's the flip side of fear. This is interesting. You and I had talked previously because we do our homework. We did About Brunet Brown and she mentions courage, talked about courage a lot, as well as shame and other things that I find fascinating.

Michael Devous:

Fear has been obvious. I mean, courage has been described as facing fear and knowing that you have fear about something and doing it anyway. I think that's a little kind of oblivious. I think real courage is understanding the risks and the challenges in front of you 100% and then taking them on and mitigating them based on your understanding of a few things. One is desire and passion for doing what it is you wanna do.

Michael Devous:

Two, you know what.

Michael Devous:

I have enough confidence in what I'm capable of to take this on, even with those risk factors, even with the self-doubt that's dragging me down or bothering me or confronting me.

Michael Devous:

And three, that you somehow know and I don't know if I wanna describe this as hope, but it's something that you know that's on the other side, the unknown result. That's on the other side of this challenge, on the other side of this task, that there's going to be some reward, that there's a growth opportunity, there's change that's coming. But part of you knows there's a tickle in the back of your brain, or your soul, your spirit, that goes you know what, if I do do this, something great is gonna become of me, something amazing is gonna happen. I feel that and I need to take this on and I think that is real courage, because the risk of failing and the cost at failing it gets greater and higher the more you care about what you're taking on and you are so fully aware and present and of what that risk is to you and to the people that it impacts, that even though you take it and do it anyway, I think that's real courage in the face of all of that.

Jen Salerno:

Well, I wish that that is something that we could tap into all the time. So I think that's something that I find so bizarre about fear, or when you have the lack of courage, is trying to remember those past experiences and being like I did that, why can't like where is that now? And also the fact that it can be something as simple as do.

Michael Devous:

I wanna post down links in today and then feeling so kind of fear about that something so small, most things yes, where's that kid who got back on that bicycle after falling down a hundred times and still learned how to ride that as a child?

Michael Devous:

Just the act of learning to ride a bicycle when you look at it and you stand back, little tiny kid on two wheels, going fast, the risk of failing which, by the way, every time you fail in riding a bicycle, you get hurt, like literally get hurt, you fall off, you fall down. It's no joke. But kids have this resilient spirit that goes get back up and get on there. You know, of course they have their parents backing them up and helping them and guiding them and cheering them on all the way, but which is probably a great thing. By the way, surround yourself with people that love, respect you and support you and hold you up and in that light that's gonna hold your candle up in that storm and not only protect it for you but relight it with their light and their joy and their energy. If that's you know what I mean, get those people around you and you will always get back up and ride the bicycle.

Jen Salerno:

I think you hit down a big key right. There is a support system, yeah.

Michael Devous:

Yeah, I think it's crucial to have one surrounding. And if that's one of the things, when you look at the fears that you're facing in your life or the choices that you're making, do you have a support system that can help you with that particular fear you're facing, that particular challenge you're about to overcome, or the thing that you wanna become next? If you can identify that there's a gap there, then perhaps filling that gap with the right support system or individual who can back you up will give you that actual little nudge that you need to take that challenge on and find the courage to face that fear. Right, very true, very true. Well, okay, so I was looking at some of your posts on LinkedIn. I was, you know, trolling and scrolling and you had a post in June that you labeled fear or fulfillment, and you had talked about Steven Pressfield's book, the word War of Arts, and said the more scared we are of work or calling, the more sure we can be that we have to do it, and you mentioned that you had a choice.

Michael Devous:

I can let myself feel intimidated and unworthy, get stuck comparing myself and asking who do I think I am to be here, or I can remind myself that I'm on my own journey, that I'm investing in this course because I know in my heart that I'm meant to do this and that I aspire to be around people who inspire fulfillment. So where are you with that journey and that philosophy? I love that you wrote this because, yes, there are two ways to feel about taking on a new project, a new career path, a new job, a new course that you're trying to do, especially when you're the one that's changing, when it's you that is making some deep, meaningful, impactful change in your person by taking this on that sort of imposter syndrome or that self-doubt that can creep in. But I love how you're reminding yourself that you're on a journey. Talk to me a little bit about that journey. And you're still on the journey. I assume this was only a few months ago, oh my gosh, you're like nope, I'm done.

Jen Salerno:

I'm out, See you later. Listening back to what I wrote, I mean, the first thought that went in my head was well, where did that go? How do I? I do this.

Michael Devous:

All the time I look back at my stuff and somebody shows it to me, I'm like, oh, that's really cool. Who wrote that? And they're like you did. And I'm like, oh my God.

Jen Salerno:

Wait, where did that attitude go? Because I must and I remember when I did that post, because I was reading that book that morning and I came across that and I was just like, oh you know, turn to the computer and I'm just like inspired, inspired in that flow state or whatever, just like those things just come pouring out. And then I will go back and look and be like, oh right, so you said something about reminder Like maybe we should go back and read all of our LinkedIn posts as reminders. But when we do have those moments of clarity because I think that's what it is.

Jen Salerno:

Those are these moments of clarity. I guess what really is challenging is where I'm at on my journey right now, or I mean, maybe it's been challenged throughout my whole life and maybe is for most people, is that you have to. It is a constant daily reminder, like I don't think anyone just reaches that point, like you said, where it's like, oh no, I have reached the end of this journey. I am, you know, I'm fear, I'm 100% fear less, like I right. I mean I don't think that that's ever going to happen.

Michael Devous:

I really should put a dash in it called the fear less road, because the practice is to learn how to fear less and move into and move towards and lean into doing more right With your life, your challenges, whatever those things are. No one's completely 100% fearless. There's not possible Right Unless you're a sociopath, I suppose. But and no dig on sociopaths, so don't dive on my show but the idea of this practice on the journey is, I think sometimes we fall out of practice, we just get distracted by life. We get distracted by politics and TV and family and other people's issues and things going on. That our actual practice of being fearless, learning to be fearless, asking the questions and investigating our own personal journey and our growth it just falls to the wayside because we start putting other priorities first.

Michael Devous:

I think this practice is crucial. I think we don't want to wait till we're 50 and just wake up one day and go oh my God, how did I get here? Which is what happened to me again. I mean, I've done that five times oh my God, how did I get here? Well, do you really want to keep asking the question or do you want to be more present and intentional with the practice of your own life, your own journey.

Jen Salerno:

Yes, so true, I love that you said that, because it's just such a. We do have that choice. Like you know, I will totally acknowledge that where I am now, this journey that I'm on of entrepreneurship and this constant facing of fear, which has just been exceptional and so much growth, but it's not something that I intentionally set out to do. I was kind of, I'm going to say, forced into it, really because of the pandemic, and so I definitely, like I love reading stories about people who, you know, made this leap because they felt like they that's what they had to do at the time, and it's just like wow, like to go from something where you felt super solid, and then you're like, no, I'm going to jump off a cliff. You know, I just was kind of pushed off a cliff, right, so it's like, well, I yeah.

Michael Devous:

We're all I mean. If you look at that, if you look at the meme of the world, and there's like this cliff and the world's like slowly being shoved to it by COVID. You know, necessity is the mother of all invention, and some of those people got squirrel suits and dove. Some of them got parachutes and floated out. Other people fell to their. To my like, covid really shook the proverbial snow globe of this planet and what settled out of it, I think, was this intense growth of entrepreneurial spirit, of people taking on things they never would have done before, because you had to. You just had to reinvent yourself and find a new path, and that energy, I think, has seeped into a lot of places around the globe. That is creating new opportunity, new businesses, new ideas, new pathways, and I think that's a pretty cool, pretty cool thing.

Jen Salerno:

I do too. And the funny thing about that, I think you're so right that it did infuse a whole new world for a lot of people. And also we have we have many different social kind of platforms to think for that as well, right, I mean, it's just a perfect storm of opportunity for people between being able to grow this, grow your business on LinkedIn or Instagram or TikTok or whatever it may be, but also then the amount of people who maybe didn't have to didn't have that exact same experience. So sometimes I'll go to industry events and I'll run into people who I knew five years ago or back in the day when I was in a completely different career role and they say I just I love how you've reinvented yourself, like, I think it's so amazing and I'm just like and I always think about when people say that to me because I'm like anyone can like.

Michael Devous:

I am like who am?

Jen Salerno:

I, no one can do that.

Michael Devous:

Right, but this is exactly what my family and my friends said to me. You always just reinvent yourself. It's so easy for you. You just land on your feet, man. Every time something happens, you just poof, come out with a whole new you and a whole new whatever. And I'm like, do I?

Jen Salerno:

Is that what I'm doing?

Michael Devous:

Yeah, exactly, and this is what I've talked about, I think I mentioned to you before, which is, if you're not living your life with intention and meaningful purpose, if you're not, if you're asleep at the wheel of your own car of life right, you've got it on autopilot then you just you accidentally do these things. You're not intentionally doing these things, and then when you discover that you're over time, you have accidentally used the same set of skills, the same characteristic traits and the same energy or whatever to reinvent yourself, to start over, to pick yourself back up, and you just do this because somewhere deep inside, that's naturally how you operate, but you've never been doing it intentionally. I woke up one day thinking oh my God, for 50 years I've been doing this. What if I did it intentionally? Like what if I used that energy with real purpose behind it, set some intentional goals, right Goals, what could I achieve? Like what would I become next if I actually used this for good?

Michael Devous:

You know, with great power comes great responsibility.

Jen Salerno:

I love it Well, and you know. That's why, you know, I think it's so important that you're starting, that you have this podcast right, because it is being able to say to just the you know, you and I are both like okay, like sure, we have made some of these moves, either, you know, purposely or accidentally or whatever, but like we are both looking at each other, like at ourselves, saying we're just regular people, right.

Michael Devous:

Right, doesn't everybody just do this?

Jen Salerno:

Yeah, I thought everybody did this Right.

Michael Devous:

And so, for the, it never occurred to me to examine it as a thing you know, like a habit or a. You know what I mean. Or is it my go-to? Is it my fail? Am I falling back to this? And when you know one of the interesting things Travis Elliott, my yogi instructor, said I love you.

Michael Devous:

We fall to our practice, meaning that if you're not practicing and training 100% every single day to improve yourself and build that foundation, what you fall back to, what you fall down to, what you fall onto, is what's left right. It's the weakest part of yourselves. It's that. It's that, it's that that space, that a doesn't have what you need, isn't supported or isn't getting you where you need to go. And for those of us who have a, who have a, either accidentally practice this, this art of reinvention and reinventing ourselves, or choosing to to come up with new changes and challenges for ourselves. Apparently, that foundation we built has grown and strengthened and become a go-to place for us when we fall.

Michael Devous:

And I don't say fail, because I don't think you're a fail person that fails. I'm not a person, I don't think that fails. I learn If, if, if something happens, it doesn't work out, I learned. I learned something about myself, something about the thing that I'm tackling or something about the world around me, and I can use that to grow and change and improve my life in some way, shape or form. It may not be huge and impactful, but it is crucial. It is a crucial understanding to know that what we fall back to is is is that area, that space that you've been practicing all along, and it's important to make sure you're well trained and and you've kept up your practice.

Jen Salerno:

It is amazing and talk about how you could use yoga in like every, it's like the perfect analogy for business and and just you know, a guide to life. I'm completely with you. Yes, it's such a wonderful, there's so many wonderful philosophies that you can take with you. I want to. I want to tell a story. It made me think about something.

Michael Devous:

Let's everybody's studio. This one, let's get this.

Jen Salerno:

There's a vulnerable moment for the show. Okay.

Michael Devous:

Vulnerability, the power, the source. Let's talk about this.

Jen Salerno:

Back in May I did something that was. That was a big leap for me and it was, you know, I. So I'm on this entrepreneurial journey as a moderator and an MC and I did an event. I MCed an event. I've MCed events, I've MCed sessions. I've moderated plenty of sessions, probably mostly virtual, over the last several years, right, and then slowly there were some more in-person things happening, but this was, to be completely honest, the first multi-day conference MC in-person in front of a. It was about a 500 person audience, right, the first time. That in itself terrifying. Right, like I knew I'd been working, working towards it. Yes, I've been working on all these, you know, over the last three years, the skill set to do it, but like there's nothing like actually doing it, yes, and for our audience.

Michael Devous:

Just by the way, if you're not familiar with the event industry space and what an MC does for an event like she's describing with, there's a 500 person event, multi-day the MC is the glue. The MC is the narrator of the entire course and path that the event takes, based on what the event planners and the creators wanted the messaging that has to get out there, the updates that have to come out through the day, the keeping up with the spirit and the energy, the connecting of people and resources and engagement opportunities throughout the event. You're the thing they look at. You're there on camera in front of everybody 100% of the time, making sure that everything's going smoothly and ensuring that people get what they need and that the messages that are coming through are being communicated. So take us through that journey.

Jen Salerno:

Well, I mean, first of all, I could not have said it better myself. That was perfect. That was like literally exactly how to describe that role. I know.

Michael Devous:

Yeah, so no pressure right. It's just you and three days and the 500 people waiting breathlessly for you to entertain them and keep them up to speed. Exactly.

Jen Salerno:

And really it was. I knew I could do it and I did do it, and I know that I executed it. I'm going to say professionally, because I'm a professional right Like I prepped. What came out of that, though? I will say there was some feedback, there was feedback, and it was not exactly what I was hoping for, and what happens, what happens when you get that kind of feedback After something like that, the thing you've been working for, holy cow how did you take it? You know?

Michael Devous:

I mean, at first, Because at three days have been in Jerry Like, no, it wasn't horrible, it wasn't horrible and it was what I, frankly, I knew.

Jen Salerno:

I knew that that was, I knew what my weakness was going into it, and weakness being that it was the first time, but also just just the fact that I'm still learning. Frankly, I'm still gaining, trying to gain confidence of being on a stage, and which is which sounds bizarre because it's like, well, this is what I'm doing and I love doing it and I do have a certain degree of natural ability to do that. But there is a difference between getting up and giving a speech you've practiced versus MCing, which is a lot of improv, right, and that is an it's more.

Michael Devous:

Well, mcing is your personality. I mean, mcing is you when the chip. So the biggest challenge I think most of us have these days and I'm going to say this for every industry and almost every person on this planet is to find your authenticity and live it. When you share that authenticity in a public forum, on a stage, with people who will review that personality and that authenticity, and if it doesn't resonate with them, it can be very challenging and very difficult to swallow that I wasn't a good fit but I didn't bring my authenticity game or whatever.

Jen Salerno:

Well, that was it. I didn't bring authenticity, I brought professionalism, like I said, but like I, I kept myself in a. I think I kept myself in a box, like, like.

Michael Devous:

Jen Well scripted, like well scripted and Jen Okay.

Jen Salerno:

Jen didn't come out on that stage, Okay, and so, and it was noticeable, so, okay. So when I so yes, was there Ben and Jerry's or you know the tears for sure, tears for sure, and and and, long walks and thinking and reflecting and all of that, but also it's like double down, Like that's where I also, like I had, I had the little period of sadness and then it was like, well, what am I, what am I going to do here? So it's like I know that I need to get some additional confidence to just like, let some, let whatever it is go. That makes me afraid to just be me on a stage, right? So you know, I'm going to sign up for an improv course and just like, like that's the move, you know, like that it's that, and I probably should have done it a long time ago, but, like you know, it's just I just got to keep doing it.

Jen Salerno:

You know what another thing that I think about all the time is like, just like I should just do like 30 days of like LinkedIn lives, Like so, if audience, if you're listening to who's going to watch, I don't care, nobody but just the act of like going on a camera for 30 days and just like break down, break down that fear of just letting it out.

Michael Devous:

Yes, and listeners, I will tell you like every one of you out there listening should take an improv class. Take an improv class. I swear you're gonna discover so many things about yourself that you didn't know before. But you also, when you complete these courses and these improv opportunities, your confidence in conversations, in live reactions, in personal relationships, in engaging with others in public spaces whether that be one-on-one, with multiple people or in a professional setting you will gain improvisational skillsets that you can put in your pocket and be like ha ha, I know how to play this game, I can say you know what if, and I can ask pertinent questions or I can tease out something that somebody else was saying, because improv is cool.

Michael Devous:

It's just a great opportunity to see where your authenticity lies, in terms of both your sense of humor as well as your listening skills, because if you are not a good listener, you cannot do improv. You've got to learn to hear what others are saying in order to play off of it, and that means you've got to be tuned in, and that's, I think, an important. I think a lot of us aren't tuned in right. We walk into our work spaces, we walk into our offices, we walk into our buildings. Hi, it's Rhodes. You know how was your day?

Michael Devous:

Having coffee and by the cooler and stuff like that, we're really not tuning in to what people are saying and probably their body language as well.

Jen Salerno:

We're just like in our heads most of the time, right, you're living in this space if you're living in a space of just like right there, right there with you and listening to you, I'm gonna bounce off of you Like I mean, and that's what an MC I know, like I know that's what an MC's job is, and I know I've seen you know fabulous MCs, and like when you were hosting that game show, I mean you were like very, very authentic, I mean you know. I mean it was just like you.

Michael Devous:

Did you know, right before we went, when we went live? Because we were live. This is a live broadcast for those of you who don't know in front of how many thousands of people were at the event, at the conference.

Jen Salerno:

Oh gosh, I mean it was at least 4,000, I think yeah.

Michael Devous:

There was a gulp moment when the camera went live and I knew that I was on a screen somewhere in front of all these people and I was like my mouth went dry. My hands I keep. They were shaking. But they were down here and I was like, oh my God, get it under control, michael. Like you've done this before. What the hell are you doing, like? Why are you so nervous? Where'd this come from?

Michael Devous:

You know and this is not the time to have the inner conversation with my fear, like which I normally would do which is hey, are you okay? What's going on with you? Why are you suddenly showing up? Let's sit down and talk about this. Well, I can't do it on camera because I'm in front of all these people at an event, so I'm like you gotta take a backseat, I gotta perform. So I need you to calm down so I can be real and enjoy myself, and that's my job is to bring the joy in the moment at the funding engagement. Right, I can't be cold and nervous for these people. I gotta be that glue factor that engages with them and brings them together, makes them feel comfortable on camera.

Jen Salerno:

And you did so. Like I know, those of us participating or watching probably didn't notice that at all. You know, I certainly didn't, probably because I was in my own little fear moment. Right, If I was a contestant or something like that.

Jen Salerno:

I know I had to talk Every time you have to. You know you have to talk. It's like you get that little little butterflies right, but then once you're going, it's fine. But I mean the thing that's so impressive. You know, like how many years have you been doing that kind of role? I mean, like you just said, it's the fear still strikes you.

Michael Devous:

It's still there. It does, and I think that's because, like I said before, when you know you're stepping into something that is important to you, that is of moral, ethical, philosophical, personal, emotional value, you're gonna be a little nervous. Right, you're carrying this little egg of joy and experience. You could drop it. You know you could make a mistake, it could cost you something. You know If you lost it or if it didn't work, the amazing thing is is it's never gonna kill you. I mean, unless you're jumping off a cliff, it's not gonna kill you.

Michael Devous:

You know these fall downs, these risks, these mistakes, this fear that you feel you're not going to die, you will change, there will be an impact and there may be a consequence. But if you take every one of those and use it as a building block for the next experience, I think we can turn that fear into a fuel and we can make it powerful for us and the sense of direction and give us some guidance on where we are with ourselves in those moments. Right, if it pops up, that means something's happening in that moment you should be aware of, you need to wake up and pay attention, because there's something happening in this moment that is resonating with your little fear factor. Your little mingdala is going off right and warning you about something that's valuable and important to you in this moment.

Jen Salerno:

I mean, if that isn't like a guide to life, I don't know what is.

Michael Devous:

Write it down.

Jen Salerno:

No wait, you're so right. I mean, it is an indicator. It is like a flag that's like hello, something important is happening, pay attention.

Michael Devous:

Hello, pay attention, yeah when what's the opportunity?

Jen Salerno:

Yes, like what.

Michael Devous:

What is the opportunity? And and so I'm gonna jump here for my opportunity to ask you, jen Slerno, what is your relationship with fear?

Jen Salerno:

My relationship with fear is it? I cannot say.

Michael Devous:

Do you have one? Are you aware that you have one? Oh?

Jen Salerno:

yes, I do and I mean it is. I cannot say that. I'm at a point where fear is my friend. I know that's. I know that's the ultimate goal. Fair enough.

Michael Devous:

It is.

Jen Salerno:

It's more like. It's more like that. It's like a nagging ex-boyfriend when you're like why are you popping up again?

Michael Devous:

We got bad blood.

Jen Salerno:

It's like Taylor Swift, you know, and so I am still working on everything that you, everything you just said about the fact that when it pops up, it's like okay, wait, this is opportunity. You know, I still am extremely susceptible to letting it negatively impact me, and so that is the practice. The practice is to kind of put up that shield of against, you know, the nagging ex. That text does not have to throw you off, you know Right, and just say, okay, you can just hang out right there, like it's almost like saying, like you said, like you need to take a backseat right now, like you just like don't, let I let it bother me. I do still let it bother me.

Michael Devous:

But don't you think that's part of it, that part of the reason why we do not handle fear well is because we've been taught all our lives not to handle it well. Like we've been taught crush your fear, kill your fear, push it away, shove it down, run from it. If you have to ignore it, it'll just go away. None of those are actively engaging with it as a fair and valuable component of your life. Like, if it's fear you're feeling, it isn't from the outside right, it's not somebody doing something to you, it's you, it's your personality, it's one of your personality traits the kind personality trait, the happy personality trait, joyful personality, sad personality trait. Well, fear is one of your personality traits and it has a voice and it isn't going away.

Michael Devous:

And I feel like what we've been taught is to treat it like some redheaded stepchild we want nothing to do with and I just think that's not working. It just isn't working and it's not healthy. And so, yeah, my job or my role or my passion right now, you know, with Fearless Road and with Making for your Friend, is to look at it differently and start treating our fear as a valued partner in our journey with life. And how do you treat a valued partner? What do you do with a valued partner? What are the steps we take to increase and engage with and foster a relationship with a valued partner? Right, right, and I think if we start framing it or reframing it this way, I think we will come through and out the other side of fear so much, so much better and more improved than than we ever could have before if we treated it.

Jen Salerno:

It's so right. It is all in the reframe, so your fear is.

Michael Devous:

Oh, it's all in the reframe Right.

Jen Salerno:

It's all in fear is an uncomfortable emotion, right, and so that's. That's another area and I think about. This is a phrase that my one of my yoga teacher said that I really try to hang on to and remember, which is find comfort in the discomfort and oh, yes right and I always think about it when he would say it would be in a half pigeon. Right Like right.

Michael Devous:

And like just breathe in to this breathe into this discomfort, find some comfort here, and it's like man like and so that yeah, for those of you who don't know, sorry I'm we just made a reference yoga pose called the half pigeon in Yin practice. So there's yoga. There's like yoga, power yoga, which is the, the Yang, which is the active, moving through all these poses with a lot of energy and power. Yin is the relaxed and calm version of this holding a pose for a long period of time. And one of those poses you hold in Yin yoga it's called the pigeon. You fold one leg in front, one leg behind and then you're supposed to lean over that leg. You're supposed to lay down and relax and put your head on the floor.

Michael Devous:

Well, if you have hips like me and knees like me and a back like me staying in that pose, is not comfortable at all yeah and sitting in that, sitting in that discomfort, your brain starts to do things fiddle, monkey, mind, you name it. All kinds of things are going to flutter in on your brain because it's trying to get you out of a pose that is physically a little uncomfortable. But you have to breathe through it and maintain and I think it's important practice in sitting in discomfort because you can do it. You can and you won't. You won't die, it's not going to kill you. But what you learn about yourself is that when you, when you're approached with discomfort, when you know it's coming, in a situation that's going to arise where your discomfort is there and live and active, because you've practiced this before, because you've done other things where you've sat in discomfort long enough to go okay, okay, I'm gonna get this you can use that practice in these situations and I think it makes a big difference. I do too.

Jen Salerno:

I do too, and so it really comes down and we keep using the word practice and I think that's such a key, such a key because it is, you know, like, like a meditation practice. You know they always say it's like five minutes a day is way better than two hours once a week. You know, like it's just, it's a daily thing. It is a daily thing that you have to just keep pushing yourself to do, and life is a practice.

Michael Devous:

Life is a practice. None of us got a book or a manual on this. None of us were sent down here going. I got this human watch maybe Jesus, okay, like, maybe he had this but the rest of us, we're all here shooting from the hip. We're all here just trying our best, you know, stumbling over the things that and, by the way, life brings so many strange and weird confrontations and obstacles and opportunities. And it totally depends on which path you're chasing and where you're putting that energy, because each direction you go you're going to get a new set of obstacles, a new set of challenges, a new set of opportunities in front of you.

Michael Devous:

There's no book Now. There's us, there's the fearless road, there's podcasts you can listen to, there's people you can you can you can listen to, a tune into, to get a little feedback and insight on. But, trust me, you're not alone on this journey of life and it is a practice to be fearless and try to stay fearless. So, talking a little bit about that part of the practice, are there any specific goals or milestones in your practice at life that you have upcoming in front of you?

Jen Salerno:

Well, I will say, you know, I had a podcast previously and it was called the Room Black, and I did. I ran it for about two years, so from summer 2020 to summer of 2022. And then I stopped because I felt like I was getting busy, and I was, and I still am. However, talk about something that's a practice, right, I mean the. The practice of running and operating and hosting a podcast is something that is extremely beneficial. So a hand swap to you for for doing it, but I do feel like it's something that I want to start again, not not that specific podcast, but something a little different, not having to do with fear, but yes, I picked a good subject.

Michael Devous:

I'm just saying it was like, wow, this is what you want to talk about.

Jen Salerno:

It's so, it's super helpful. I know that everyone's going to loving it, but yeah, but so something like I would say that that is, that is something. A goal that I have is to get that going again Because, honestly, it's, it keeps me in practice. It keeps me, you know, honing my craft of speaking and conversing and and moderating conversations, and I just want to get back to that more, because it's something that I really do love doing and it can only make me better.

Michael Devous:

Well, if this is your, if this is your art, if engaging with people is your art, right and and using your voice as a platform is is part of your art, then how do we practice? Like, where's my canvas? You know, picasso could go into your studio every afternoon alone by himself and his paint brushes and his colors and create magic, but he practiced, right. I mean, it was an art for him to practice getting on that canvas.

Michael Devous:

Well, I thought of the same thing last year when I was this idea of the podcast and my motivational speaking career came about. I wanted a place to practice the art of me. I wanted a place to. I wanted a canvas and a platform where all of the paint brushes and colors of who I am could come to life and that I could give and use that to give back to a community. And I and I feel like you're right, that this is, this is where I practice and it's it's, it's a space for me to really just sort of, you know, learn how to be a better me by listening to other people and own their journeys.

Jen Salerno:

Yes, so thank you for having me here. Thank you for allowing me to describe how you describe different things about your journey or entrepreneurship, or the work that you do. You have a very beautiful way of describing it it is a gift. So this, this is, this is, this is where you're meant to be for sure Speaking to share my gift.

Michael Devous:

Yes, and speaking of that, like my last sort of well, before I get to my last question, actually, there was a second post that you wrote back in March. You just talked about some of your milestones and your future that you want to tackle and add to your particular plate, which I find interesting because you posted are you placing unnecessary limits on yourself Sometime? Limits are good for us. However, have you ever stopped to consider if you're placing limits on yourself or others that might not be so helpful, so you're placing the opposite of a limit? Is you're placing a bar right In life? I think we do both. We place limits and we place bars, and somewhere in between these two, right In that zone, is where we live. Right, this is the space we live in, this is the space we exist in and hopefully, this is the space where we're abundant and we're growing and we're being amazing. But if our limits and our bars are too close together, is there room for growth? Oh man.

Jen Salerno:

That's a good question, Terry Bradshaw. Write that down. I could help.

Michael Devous:

But wonder I want to be on my bed with my little journal and be like is there room for growth?

Jen Salerno:

I love the way that you just described all of that. Yeah, I think they can be too close together. I think that, and I find this in myself too. You just asked me a question about what my goal is. Like okay, well, I already had a podcast, so like that's my goal to start it again. No, but like there is more. There is more, and I almost feel like I do I dare to even think it or speak it or say it, and that is the key is allowing ourselves to want that and to think it and to say it and to speak it out loud.

Michael Devous:

So that's, you're talking about vulnerability, which brings me to my final question. We ask our guests, when they come on the Fearless Road, to share their personal journeys with us, especially talking about fear, which means we have to be vulnerable and, as I've always said, this is a vulnerable space. This is a great space to share your vulnerability and be vulnerable. You will not be judged here. You will not be ridiculed. This is a space to be vulnerable and share vulnerability. Talk to me about is vulnerability necessary for courage? Is it vulnerable? Is vulnerability necessary for progress?

Jen Salerno:

Yes, oh yeah, I think so for sure. I feel like women tend to have an easier time with this aspect because we are allowed, we are allowed to feel more vulnerable and to act more vulnerable and to speak in a more vulnerable way.

Michael Devous:

There's that society limit on men and bar for women.

Jen Salerno:

Yes.

Michael Devous:

Right Men are limited because we're not allowed to be vulnerable, women are encouraged instead of bar high Be vulnerable. You're not a woman if you're not vulnerable.

Jen Salerno:

Exactly so. Yes, it is 100% necessary. I have a friend who is a man and he is extremely emotional and shows vulnerability a lot, and then in the next breath we'll say I'm sorry to be so weak, and I say you are not weak. That's incredible strength to show that?

Michael Devous:

How do we teach God I'm going to say the world, and I know this is ambitious, hopefully my show reaches the world how do we begin to teach our audience and our listeners that vulnerability is a power source? It is a source of your authentic power and it is the place where your creativity, your ingenuity, your love, your joy, your abundance comes from your growth. That is the nurturing soil on which we grow the fields of brilliance and ingenuity and creativity. How do we teach that? How do we share with the world and people that being vulnerable is okay, not just okay?

Jen Salerno:

It's necessary. And it's showing strength. I think it's a show of strength.

Michael Devous:

Well, so then it requires first I guess it requires a redefining. Right, you have to redefine what vulnerability is as strength and vulnerability two sides of the same coin. Right, you can't get strength if you're not vulnerable. I mean, let's put it in gym perspective you go into a gym and you stand there and you're like I want to get big and muscular and strong. Well, guess what? You can't do that if you don't pick up a weight. You got to get vulnerable first and find out that's too heavy, You're never going to lift it. You got to go down here and say well, I'm going to start with the 15-pounder.

Jen Salerno:

You're right, though that's a great way to analogy.

Michael Devous:

Right. So if what you want is growth, if what you want is advancement, if what you want is progress in your life, you have to start from a place of vulnerability and acknowledge there are places that need strengthening and places that need growing and places that need training and practice. That's vulnerability, that's acknowledging. I need to grow and in order to do that, I got to get vulnerable first and I got to pass through this. Gosh, I love exploring these things because they help me see. You know, in my perspective, that I have had these strengths all my life, that I have had and I have been displacing or misplacing my strengths by mislabeling them, by not giving them appropriate attention and by not honoring them as part of me, and I think it's time we do that. I think it's time we take a step back and we honor fear, we honor vulnerability. We honor that. It takes those things to get to courage. It takes those things to get to fearless. Right, gosh, good stuff. So if people want to find Jen Silvernaut, how do we find it? You?

Jen Salerno:

mentioned LinkedIn, which I'm very thankful for. So, yes, that is definitely what I'm posting the most these days. That just I guess that's just where I like to have the conversations, that similar to what we're having now. I do have an Instagram account and some JT Salerno Facebook as well, but, yeah, linkedin primarily. And then my company is JTS Connect, so my Evo website, so JTSconnectcom, and that is. It is through this company that I offer event hosting, mcing, moderating, as well as podcast hosting or on-camera hosting services to any type of client. But I do love to serve the events and hospitality industry, because that is where I came from.

Michael Devous:

And they love you. Speaking of loving you, I love you and I'm so appreciative of you for coming on this show today and sharing with us your journey. I'm sure I'm going to have you back again, because it's a journey and you're going to learn some things and you're going to have some new stuff to share especially when you're sitting in these bars. Right, so when we let everybody go today, is there a message or anything you'd like to share with the audience before you part? Is there some kind of positive feedback?

Jen Salerno:

Yeah, I mean, I would say for anyone listening, it really just comes down to you just kind of do it. This is funny. So my husband who is for sure my biggest cheerleader by far he likes to quote Martin Lawrence from the 90s. He's nothing to it but to do it, and 99.9% of the time he's totally right. It is.

Michael Devous:

Ain't no thing but a chicken wing.

Jen Salerno:

Just do it, just do it. I think about you going, you know, like you were saying before going on the game show, like just you, just have to do it. Me before that event three day MC just do it, just do it. Like what other choice do you have? Just do it.

Michael Devous:

Oh well, you have a lot of choices. You can go back to sleep and hit that snooze button on your life. That's the thing you know. But what does that go now accomplish you? You know, accomplish for you. What does that go on accomplish? Don't hit this news button on your life. Wake up people, because you are on a journey and it's a practice at this life and you can become fearless. So thank you for joining us on the fearless road. Thank you for sharing your time and your ears and listening to us today. If you want to learn more, obviously, go to the fearless roadcom with the podcast, or you can look us up on YouTube as well and see the blog, all the information there. So, Jen Slernow, namaste, and thank you so much for sharing your fearless journey with us today on the fearless road.

Jen Salerno:

Thank you for having me. It's been amazing. It's been wonderful chatting with you, Michael.

Michael Devous:

Of course You're welcome Okay. Bye everybody, we'll see you later.